[2-28-11] I am WAY smexier than Penny.

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Postby Tropylium » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:46 pm

IS_Wolf wrote:
flintyoungblood wrote:Yes! this is perfect! Now if we can get a reaction shot from Penny talking this over with Sara (preferably with Sara desperately trying not to scream "Told you so!" at the top of her lungs) this will round everything out nicely. After that by all means lets see what the supporting stars are up to.


I'm guessing big Anime eyes with big sparkling stars in them, trying to tone down her glee.

That would be rather predictably awesome, yes.

My initial thought here was "meh, we're skipping the panic part", but it's pretty clear she's not done yet, she's merely upgraded to hystery.

(Should I remind the forum what the recommended traditional cure for hystery is? :twisted:)
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Postby showler » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:53 pm

Tropylium wrote:(Should I remind the forum what the recommended traditional cure for hystery is? :twisted:)
Following Helen to Boston to visit Nerdrotica, but for somewhat different reasons (and bringing a steampunk costume)?
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Postby mindstalk » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:54 pm

Tropylium wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
flintyoungblood wrote:Yes! this is perfect! Now if we can get a reaction shot from Penny talking this over with Sara (preferably with Sara desperately trying not to scream "Told you so!" at the top of her lungs) this will round everything out nicely. After that by all means lets see what the supporting stars are up to.


I'm guessing big Anime eyes with big sparkling stars in them, trying to tone down her glee.

That would be rather predictably awesome, yes.

My initial thought here was "meh, we're skipping the panic part", but it's pretty clear she's not done yet, she's merely upgraded to hystery.

(Should I remind the forum what the recommended traditional cure for hystery is? :twisted:)


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Postby Harkel Tu » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:36 pm

okay, i'm reading all this conversation about some kind of Penny/Aggie/Lisa love triangle-ish thing going on and an image burst forth from the darkest depths of my memory... okay, honestly it was just like, the dark, sewer-ish place in my mind, but still.

The scene from Penny's self-realizing dream where Karen has the 'rainbow hose'(TM) and shouts "Taste the Rainbow!" Aggie isn't the only naked girl in the background, Lisa is also equally as nude and equally as eager. Whether it be to get 'hosed' or something else... well, I'm not so sure. Could this have been T hinting at something in the future? Possibly something along the lines of what we're discussing now? Hmm... Maybe i'm just reading into this too much... but isn't that kind of what we do here?



Also... P&A has delved into many-a relationship category. We've got Fred, a homosexual male, SEVERAL lesbian characters/couples, and many, many heterosexual characters and couples(failed and true).So far, one of the only relationship types I can think of that we HAVEN'T delved into yet... is a polygamous one. Could this be something T has planned? or is my girlfriend just egging these thoughts into my head...

Reading too much or no?
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Postby mindstalk » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:54 pm

It is odd Lisa was in that dream. OTOH she's Penny's shadow and has rainbow hair, so.

Statistically it'd be more likely for Fred to have a boyfriend than for a polyamory thing to start up, I think. OTOH Stan and Brandi were doing non-exclusive dating and sexing, until they weren't.

Speaking of Fred, the valid accusation about lesbian fanservice is that where gays do get relationships in fiction, they're more likely to be girl-girl than gay male. This despite lesbians being probably somewhat less frequent than gay males, though admittedly the bi female contingent is relatively large. (Bi male isn't.)

Of course, as a straight male fan I freely admit to enjoying fiction with lesbians more than fiction with gay males, so the service has good market reasons, depending on your market... I'm passing over the whole yaoi/BL thing out of Japan, and whatever webcomics with multiple gay males there might be out there. And then there's Menage a 3, which is equal opportunity.

But consider "Buffy", arguably feminist and gay friendly. The gay male was a bit character who died in S3, whereas we got multiple girl-girl to go with the het. I'm not sure that fully services the audience. Babylon-5 was subtle to the point of invisibility, but sort of slipped in a bi-female relationship, nothing for the guys.

Was Dawson's Creek the first mainstream US TV with gay male kiss? Had an explicit atheist right in the premiere, too, which kept me from turning it off.
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Postby greenglowinggoo » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:09 pm

In all seriousness, Lisa is sooooo missing the point of everything. Aggie's issue before with kissing Lisa was it would have been meaningless. A distraction from the smooching behind them. The kiss with Penny was not that at all. The situations are very different.
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Postby oddtail » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:12 pm

sun tzu wrote:
oddtail wrote:
Heavensrun wrote:Lisa offered to kiss Aggie and got shot down. Whether she actually had romantic interest and played it casual to avoid conflict, or whether she actually -was- being casual about it, that was a rejection. It's possible Lisa metabolized that rejection by assuming Aggie just wasn't interested in girls, and -now- she's being hit with the idea that Aggie just wasn't interested in -her-. That's a hit on the self-esteem, whatever her feelings for Aggie are.


It's only a hit to self-esteem if one makes this assumption in the first place.

I find it to be a bad idea to assume that "he/she doesn't want me because, uhhhhh, of Obvious Excuse! Yes!". Then again, Lisa does seem to have a very high opinion of herself.


...She does? :?
I mean, I've never seen her wracked with self-loathing per se, but...


That's my reading of her words and actions. Heck, even in the latest installment she says how much "smexier" she is than Penny. Then there's the fact that she's always calling everyone's attention to herself - to me, a person who does that thinks they're worthy of that much attention. Also, I have a vague memory of her saying boastful stuff about herself, but I don't remember any specific occurrences.

Still, her general attitude is, to me, that of a person who thinks everything is revolving around her - and if it isn't, it should.
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Postby Mung » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:13 pm

mindstalk wrote:It is odd Lisa was in that dream. OTOH she's Penny's shadow and has rainbow hair, so.

Statistically it'd be more likely for Fred to have a boyfriend than for a polyamory thing to start up, I think. OTOH Stan and Brandi were doing non-exclusive dating and sexing, until they weren't.

Speaking of Fred, the valid accusation about lesbian fanservice is that where gays do get relationships in fiction, they're more likely to be girl-girl than gay male. This despite lesbians being probably somewhat less frequent than gay males, though admittedly the bi female contingent is relatively large. (Bi male isn't.)

Of course, as a straight male fan I freely admit to enjoying fiction with lesbians more than fiction with gay males, so the service has good market reasons, depending on your market... I'm passing over the whole yaoi/BL thing out of Japan, and whatever webcomics with multiple gay males there might be out there. And then there's Menage a 3, which is equal opportunity.

But consider "Buffy", arguably feminist and gay friendly. The gay male was a bit character who died in S3, whereas we got multiple girl-girl to go with the het. I'm not sure that fully services the audience. Babylon-5 was subtle to the point of invisibility, but sort of slipped in a bi-female relationship, nothing for the guys.

Was Dawson's Creek the first mainstream US TV with gay male kiss? Had an explicit atheist right in the premiere, too, which kept me from turning it off.


Yeah - I personally would love to have Fred find someone and have a squee moment. I'm a het guy, but few things are less realistic to me than the gay eunuchs you see through out the media. "I'm gay, but I never actually get any" is kinda lame. No, I don't need to see guys getting it on, but an embrace, a kiss and fade to black would give everyone the right idea.
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Postby mindstalk » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:16 pm

oddtail wrote:That's my reading of her words and actions. Heck, even in the latest installment she says how much "smexier" she is than Penny.


And you thought she was serious?

Your English is excellent but you have a Poland location so I don't know. But to me that line was clearly, hmm, not sure what to call it, "irony" is totally overused. Self-deprecation through superficial self-aggrandizing, so over the top you know it's over the top. But clearly that pattern, given how she says it ("Now, obviously") and who she is.
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Postby Alice Macher » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:22 pm

@Harkel Tu: I don't think we're heading for a polyamorous (not "polygamous") future for Penny, Aggie and Lisa, no. But I have wondered what was the significance of Lisa as well as Aggie being naked in Penny's dream. My best guess would be that it suggests Penny isn't merely "straight except for Aggie," but more generally bi.

Another thought on the poly angle: T has, to be sure, written a healthy, long-lasting poly relationship in Fans. But the ages and social independence of Rikk, Rumy and Ally, as well as the nature of the world they live in, are different from those of Penny, Aggie and Lisa, even if the latter were inclined to fall in love with each other. Their world is much more like our world than that of Fans. And in our world, the two-partner same-sex relationship has had a big enough hurdle to overcome in terms of social acceptance as it is, and it's still far ahead of the poly relationship (same-sex or bi) in that respect. Many people in Western society still have little to no idea that polyamory even exists, and of those who do, many associate it with alleged free-for-all hippie orgies in the commune, with the "swinger" subculture, or with just plain sleeping around. (Even in the more open-minded America of Fans, the Oberfs have faced obstacles in having their relationship recognized legally and socially.) So I don't see T going that route in P&A and making it true to that world.
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Postby oddtail » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:25 pm

mindstalk wrote:
oddtail wrote:That's my reading of her words and actions. Heck, even in the latest installment she says how much "smexier" she is than Penny.


And you thought she was serious?

Your English is excellent but you have a Poland location so I don't know. But to me that line was clearly, hmm, not sure what to call it, "irony" is totally overused. Self-deprecation through superficial self-aggrandizing, so over the top you know it's over the top. But clearly that pattern, given how she says it ("Now, obviously") and who she is.


I dunno, this sort of self-deprecation looks more like "OK, I can't *outright* state how awesome I am, so I will just pretend I'm joking around". If Lisa was so obviously joking, why did she get angry that Aggie thinks of her as obviously unsexy? I have never seen anything that indicates that Lisa is modest. And no, being snarky about boasting does not equal modesty in my book.

As for my location, yeah, I'm from Poland. But it's not like I'm from the Moon, Poland is pretty much part of the West, culturally. So I know what irony and self-deprecation is, I just don't find that using it in such a way is genuine.

And regarding my English - why, thank you =). My command of English is sort of a requirement for my job, though, I'm a translator, and my linguistics education came from the English Studies department of my university (I still got 95% of my English skills from the Internet and computer games, but that's irrelevant). Still, it's always nice to hear a compliment, doubly so when one was not fishing for it ;).
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Postby Harkel Tu » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:29 pm

Alice Macher wrote:@Harkel Tu: I don't think we're heading for a polyamorous (not "polygamous") future for Penny, Aggie and Lisa, no. But I have wondered what was the significance of Lisa as well as Aggie being naked in Penny's dream. My best guess would be that it suggests Penny isn't merely "straight except for Aggie," but more generally bi.

Another thought on the poly angle: T has, to be sure, written a healthy, long-lasting poly relationship in Fans. But the ages and social independence of Rikk, Rumy and Ally, as well as the nature of the world they live in, are different from those of Penny, Aggie and Lisa, even if the latter were inclined to fall in love with each other. Their world is much more like our world than that of Fans. And in our world, the two-partner same-sex relationship has had a big enough hurdle to overcome in terms of social acceptance as it is, and it's still far ahead of the poly relationship (same-sex or bi) in that respect. Many people in Western society still have little to no idea that polyamory even exists, and of those who do, many associate it with alleged free-for-all hippie orgies in the commune, with the "swinger" subculture, or with just plain sleeping around. (Even in the more open-minded America of Fans, the Oberfs have faced obstacles in having their relationship recognized legally and socially.) So I don't see T going that route in P&A and making it true to that world.


Ah, alright. I hadn't been aware of any goings on in the Fans comics before now, as I haven't gotten around to reading them. (still attempting to keep up with all my webcomics, fanfictions, and the onset of the ACT tomorow >_<)

Though, that was just more of a tangent thought on my part, or perhaps my girlfriend's simply placed into my head after hours of talk of 'converting' girls we know into joining some form of harem... so that would at least make it a 50-50 in terms of who's idea it is that's stuck in my head.

Anyways... the significance of the nekkid Lisa in penny's dream still eludes us... but T never does anything without purpose... I think at least. We shall see...
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Postby Kamino Neko » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:39 pm

greenglowinggoo wrote:In all seriousness, Lisa is sooooo missing the point of everything. Aggie's issue before with kissing Lisa was it would have been meaningless.


Not really. If her issue had been that it was meaningless, she wouldn't have read into it nearly as much as she did. But, for her, it wasn't meaningless (not that she wants Lisa, but it still hit close to home), and she wasn't consciously acknowledging that, yet, so she ended up freaking out over it.
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Postby sentora » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:41 pm

Harkel Tu wrote:
Alice Macher wrote:@Harkel Tu: I don't think we're heading for a polyamorous (not "polygamous") future for Penny, Aggie and Lisa, no. But I have wondered what was the significance of Lisa as well as Aggie being naked in Penny's dream. My best guess would be that it suggests Penny isn't merely "straight except for Aggie," but more generally bi.

Another thought on the poly angle: T has, to be sure, written a healthy, long-lasting poly relationship in Fans. But the ages and social independence of Rikk, Rumy and Ally, as well as the nature of the world they live in, are different from those of Penny, Aggie and Lisa, even if the latter were inclined to fall in love with each other. Their world is much more like our world than that of Fans. And in our world, the two-partner same-sex relationship has had a big enough hurdle to overcome in terms of social acceptance as it is, and it's still far ahead of the poly relationship (same-sex or bi) in that respect. Many people in Western society still have little to no idea that polyamory even exists, and of those who do, many associate it with alleged free-for-all hippie orgies in the commune, with the "swinger" subculture, or with just plain sleeping around. (Even in the more open-minded America of Fans, the Oberfs have faced obstacles in having their relationship recognized legally and socially.) So I don't see T going that route in P&A and making it true to that world.


Ah, alright. I hadn't been aware of any goings on in the Fans comics before now, as I haven't gotten around to reading them. (still attempting to keep up with all my webcomics, fanfictions, and the onset of the ACT tomorow >_<)

Though, that was just more of a tangent thought on my part, or perhaps my girlfriend's simply placed into my head after hours of talk of 'converting' girls we know into joining some form of harem... so that would at least make it a 50-50 in terms of who's idea it is that's stuck in my head.

Anyways... the significance of the nekkid Lisa in penny's dream still eludes us... but T never does anything without purpose... I think at least. We shall see...


Trust me, you'll love Fans. You might find the first arc starts kinda slow, but the characters suck you right in.

As for Lisa being naked, I originally just considered that she'd naturally be there since it was a collection of everyone gay or lesbian in her circle, and Penny would know Lisa's at least bi from the kiss incident with Sara. Now you have me wondering if there's more to it as well.
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Postby mindstalk » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:44 pm

oddtail wrote:I dunno, this sort of self-deprecation looks more like "OK, I can't *outright* state how awesome I am, so I will just pretend I'm joking around". If Lisa was so obviously joking, why did she get angry that Aggie thinks of her as obviously unsexy? I have never seen anything that indicates that Lisa is modest. And no, being snarky about boasting does not equal modesty in my book.


My read of Lisa is that she knows full well she's not as standard hot as Penny. OTOH, having Aggie laugh that long and hard in response will still wound -- "yeah I was being silly, but you don't have to rub it in that hard. What, is my being sexy that unthinkable?"

As for my location, yeah, I'm from Poland. But it's not like I'm from the Moon, Poland is pretty much part of the West, culturally. So I know what irony and self-deprecation is, I just don't find that using it in such a way is genuine.


It's not whether Poland has irony, but whether a non-native speaker will pick up the same tones in a language. Hell, lots of native speakers have problems when it's subtle; Americans are famous, justified or not, for missing a lot of British or Canadian humor.

And, hmm, that style of humor might be callable "consider the source" humor. Some statements are over the top to almost all observers. Other statements could be meant perfectly seriously by some people, but if you know a particular person, or extend an assumption of not being crazy, then you should know to read the statement ironically. Or if you don't know them well, to at least wonder if you should.

For those who know online SF fandom James Nicoll is a noted practitioner, and I've seen people I thought were long-time readers still get tripped by statements I thought were obviously ironic.


As for naked dream Lisa, it might have been simply to keep a "three maidens" motif going. Fred, Daphne, Sara; Cyndi, Aggie, Lisa. I think that's how I originally read it, actually -- or as Penny, Aggie, and Lisa being the second Three, with Penny being the odd one out, like Medusa.
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