[2-28-11] I am WAY smexier than Penny.

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Postby mindstalk » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:46 pm

As for Lisa being naked, I originally just considered that she'd naturally be there since it was a collection of everyone gay or lesbian in her circle, and Penny would know Lisa's at least bi from the kiss incident with Sara. Now you have me wondering if there's more to it as well.


That's even simpler than my Triple Goddess Motif theory.
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Postby sentora » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:50 pm

mindstalk wrote:Speaking of Fred, the valid accusation about lesbian fanservice is that where gays do get relationships in fiction, they're more likely to be girl-girl than gay male. This despite lesbians being probably somewhat less frequent than gay males, though admittedly the bi female contingent is relatively large. (Bi male isn't.)

Of course, as a straight male fan I freely admit to enjoying fiction with lesbians more than fiction with gay males, so the service has good market reasons, depending on your market... I'm passing over the whole yaoi/BL thing out of Japan, and whatever webcomics with multiple gay males there might be out there. And then there's Menage a 3, which is equal opportunity.

But consider "Buffy", arguably feminist and gay friendly. The gay male was a bit character who died in S3, whereas we got multiple girl-girl to go with the het. I'm not sure that fully services the audience. Babylon-5 was subtle to the point of invisibility, but sort of slipped in a bi-female relationship, nothing for the guys.

Was Dawson's Creek the first mainstream US TV with gay male kiss? Had an explicit atheist right in the premiere, too, which kept me from turning it off.


I'm not quite sure if it was. I do remember some other show or reality tv event that made a huge deal out of a gay couple at the time. I almost want to say Will and Grace. I almost want to count Queer as Folk but it might be disqualified since it was cable.

But you're right about lesbians relationships being used more than gay men in media. It also didn't help when a gay male couple would be played off as a gimmick or be annoyingly stereotypical rather than actually fleshed out, or that the writers would pussy out and have them regulated to short moments of "Here to be gay for our five minute quota!"
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Postby undefinedlust » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:04 pm

mindstalk wrote:It is odd Lisa was in that dream. OTOH she's Penny's shadow and has rainbow hair, so.

Statistically it'd be more likely for Fred to have a boyfriend than for a polyamory thing to start up, I think. OTOH Stan and Brandi were doing non-exclusive dating and sexing, until they weren't.

Speaking of Fred, the valid accusation about lesbian fanservice is that where gays do get relationships in fiction, they're more likely to be girl-girl than gay male. This despite lesbians being probably somewhat less frequent than gay males, though admittedly the bi female contingent is relatively large. (Bi male isn't.)

Of course, as a straight male fan I freely admit to enjoying fiction with lesbians more than fiction with gay males, so the service has good market reasons, depending on your market... I'm passing over the whole yaoi/BL thing out of Japan, and whatever webcomics with multiple gay males there might be out there. And then there's Menage a 3, which is equal opportunity.

But consider "Buffy", arguably feminist and gay friendly. The gay male was a bit character who died in S3, whereas we got multiple girl-girl to go with the het. I'm not sure that fully services the audience. Babylon-5 was subtle to the point of invisibility, but sort of slipped in a bi-female relationship, nothing for the guys.

Was Dawson's Creek the first mainstream US TV with gay male kiss? Had an explicit atheist right in the premiere, too, which kept me from turning it off.


I think the big difference here is that in mainstream media gay men are less common/less fully formed characters. In less mainstream media I might suggest that man on man love is far more prevalent that girl/girl. You say you pass over yaoi. That's a mistake in the sense of looking at the frequency of g/ vs b/l media. The impact of yaoi on US webcomicing is enormous. (Hell I think 98% of smackjeeves consists of boy love comics. Almost uniformly terrible ones it seems but that is another story!) I would also suggest that there is likely much more boy/boy slashfic than girl/girl in a whole lot of fandoms. (Harry Potter, LOTR, etc)

When looking at web stuff, what constitutes mainstream? I mean for webcomics I guess you could go with the biggest numbers, but huge numbers of even the biggest in terms of traffic are rooted in catering to various subcultures.
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Postby Harkel Tu » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:10 pm

undefinedlust wrote:I think the big difference here is that in mainstream media gay men are less common/less fully formed characters. In less mainstream media I might suggest that man on man love is far more prevalent that girl/girl. You say you pass over yaoi. That's a mistake in the sense of looking at the frequency of g/ vs b/l media. The impact of yaoi on US webcomicing is enormous. (Hell I think 98% of smackjeeves consists of boy love comics. Almost uniformly terrible ones it seems but that is another story!) I would also suggest that there is likely much more boy/boy slashfic than girl/girl in a whole lot of fandoms. (Harry Potter, LOTR, etc)

When looking at web stuff, what constitutes mainstream? I mean for webcomics I guess you could go with the biggest numbers, but huge numbers of even the biggest in terms of traffic are rooted in catering to various subcultures.


I have to agree here, look at the large fanfiction 'war' between (yes, i'm mentioning this, as I feel it is relative if not desireable to any who may read this) Sasu/Naru and Naru/Hina in the Naruto fandom. Even in canon it's becoming one big gay romeo and juliet.

e.g. Naruto saying that he and Sasuke should 'die together' meanwhile Naruto has been chasing/training to catch that emo bugger for almost three years.
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Postby showler » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:20 pm

I wonder if Sara ever straightened Penny and Michelle out with regards to the "kiss incident" with Lisa? Penny originally thought it was an actual kiss when it was much closer to a magic nose beep.
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Postby darklion » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:26 pm

Penny may have thought that, but Sara didn't know she did; hence I doubt it was ever straightened out. Of course, it probably doesn't matter since Penny knows Lisa well enough to believe that it was her just fooling around.
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Postby sun tzu » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:10 pm

oddtail wrote:
sun tzu wrote:
oddtail wrote:
Heavensrun wrote:Lisa offered to kiss Aggie and got shot down. Whether she actually had romantic interest and played it casual to avoid conflict, or whether she actually -was- being casual about it, that was a rejection. It's possible Lisa metabolized that rejection by assuming Aggie just wasn't interested in girls, and -now- she's being hit with the idea that Aggie just wasn't interested in -her-. That's a hit on the self-esteem, whatever her feelings for Aggie are.


It's only a hit to self-esteem if one makes this assumption in the first place.

I find it to be a bad idea to assume that "he/she doesn't want me because, uhhhhh, of Obvious Excuse! Yes!". Then again, Lisa does seem to have a very high opinion of herself.


...She does? :?
I mean, I've never seen her wracked with self-loathing per se, but...


That's my reading of her words and actions. Heck, even in the latest installment she says how much "smexier" she is than Penny. Then there's the fact that she's always calling everyone's attention to herself - to me, a person who does that thinks they're worthy of that much attention. Also, I have a vague memory of her saying boastful stuff about herself, but I don't remember any specific occurrences.

Still, her general attitude is, to me, that of a person who thinks everything is revolving around her - and if it isn't, it should.


Eh. I don't read her behavior as "I deserve attention!" so much as "I enjoy attention!"
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Postby Spudnuts » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:26 pm

sun tzu wrote:Eh. I don't read her behavior as "I deserve attention!" so much as "I enjoy attention!"


As a recovered class clown I agree with this.
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Postby retrophrenologist » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:01 pm

You've all seen that today's strip showed up on Gail Simone's tumblr, right?
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Postby TCampbell » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:40 pm

retrophrenologist wrote:You've all seen that today's strip showed up on Gail Simone's tumblr, right?


News to me!!
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Postby showler » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:44 pm

Site's been slow for me all evening. I wonder if Gail Simone and things like being mentioned on AfterEllen.com have drive up the traffic considerably?
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Postby Spitewitch » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:54 pm

I think we all have a tendency to over-analyze every little detail of each comic as it's posted. I mean after all, what else are we going to do while we gnaw our cuticles down to throbbing craters, awaiting the next installment of our beloved dramedie? For all its relatively light aspect, this comic has a way of making us (me at least, and to judge by this forum, a lot of you agree) care enough about the characters to seriously NEED TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT. And, the speed of webcomics being what it is...over-analysis ensues.

A friendly tip, though, is to get a little meta about it. Considering the strip overall, there are stylistic points to the art that are cues that comic relief is happening, and we needn't worry too much. Take today's strip as a case-in-point: Lisa's expression in the last panel is a tad worrisome, but it is also sufficiently exaggerated to be cartoonish. Aggie's helpless laughter is DEFINITELY cartoonish. Generally, this is a tip-off. Waltrip usually doesn't dip into the cartoon well when srsbsns is occurring.

It'll all look different when we can read the whole arc at once. Be at ease, Lisa fans: I think she's just fine, for now.
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Postby Alice Macher » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:02 pm

You make a good point, Spitewitch. I'm more at ease with Lisa's reaction now.

Also, even though you've just joined, I already love you for the "gnaw our cuticles down to throbbing craters" line. Brava. :lol:
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Postby Spitewitch » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:05 pm

Alice Macher wrote:You make a good point, Spitewitch. I'm more at ease with Lisa's reaction now.

Also, even though you've just joined, I already love you for the "gnaw our cuticles down to throbbing craters" line. Brava. :lol:


Heh, I'm a longtime lurker. But this being The Story Arc that pays off the last seven years of buildup...yeah, I feel I had no choice but to wade in. Nice to be welcomed by the great one herself. :D
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Postby Mr. Brightside » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:06 pm

When a writer for DC think it's noteworthy that your webcomic references her creation, you have made it.
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