OT: how is ableism an -ism?

[Artemisia]

Mostly I'm just baffled by social situations. I kind of understand what Valerie was saying about her sister. I mean, I actively had to learn to reply to people saying nice things to me, and often feel like I don't know the right thing to say. I have had to learn to respond to people complimenting how I look or what I'm wearing. I don't know. It sounds like Valerie's sister has the emotions, but doesn't know how to connect them to the socially acceptable response, if that makes sense, and, I don't know, just, it sounds like it has to be majorly panic inducing and difficult to cope with social situations. I guess part of what bothers me is that, from what I've seen and understand about Asperger's, I don't understand how it is a disability or anything along those lines.

[Lia S]

Awareness of ones autism making social interaction difficult (even when one doesn't know one is autistic) can lead to social anxiety ("oh no, I can't go there, I might say something rude!"), and getting autistic-style overloaded by having lots of people around obviously leads to anxiety too, but...

ETA: Asperger's and other "high functioning" types of autism are disabilities because they make life really difficult - losing jobs and relationships all the time, daily life being really tiring, being unable to plan ahead even only the next day, being unable to imagine things (which really limits ones thinking), being unable to separate sounds in noisy environments (which is kind of similar to being deaf but much more tiring), etc... it seems the common causes give everyone a different set of disabilities.

[Artemisia]

I just want to make clear that I'm not claiming anything. I'm just relating to what I know so that I can understand better. It's how I work. I don't want it to sound as I am claiming anything.

[Glishara]

One of the issues with ableism as it specifically relates to the autistic community is that if the proportions were reversed -- if nearly everyone were on the autistic spectrum -- it would be the people who are viewed as "normal" or "neurotypical" who would have more trouble.

Society is made to cater to the majority, so when a minority has a hard time functioning in the accepted framework, they're seen as lesser. Lia mentioned losing jobs and friendships, but that's not a part of being autistic, it's part of the way people reacts to your behaviors when you're autistic.

My son is autistic, and I've spent a lot of time poking around the community, though without getting actively involved, because as his mom, I have a right (and an obligation) to learn, but not necessarily to speak. The most frustrating thing for a lot of PWDs is that the able-bodied, neurotypical world insists on making decisions for them or deciding what's best for them.

I don't know who here knows about Autism Speaks, but it's a charity with the goal of curing autism. I have never met a single autistic person who liked or approved of them. Lots of parents and family members of children with autism like them a lot, but they have no members of their boards who actually have autism, and have unilaterally decided that everyone would be better off if autism were eradicated. Autistic adults (in my experience) are furious about this, because they don't view themselves as lesser: their problem is that they see things differently, and the rest of the world expects them to do all of the accommodating.

I think that's the mindset that leads to people saying, "Don't say disabilities are bad." So of them clearly are, but others are more grey-shaded. If you offered me a cure tomorrow, a magic shot to make my son "normal", I wouldn't take it. He's fantastic and funny and sweet and brilliant, even if he has some significant issues, and it's not my place -- or anyone's -- to say he should be changed, unless he decides he wants it.

Maybe the rising autism rates are actually human evolution in action. I know a few people who are autistic who would argue that they are. Autism is what I know most about, but I suspect some of the similar logic applies in the Deaf community and among other groups, as well. The assumption that something is a defect that needs curing just because it's different from you, or that someone's life is less happy than yours because of a physical, mental, or emotional problem, is where ableism starts.

[Artemisia]

Glishara,

I have had a lot of trouble with the idea that rates of autism and autism spectrum are rising. Valerie mentioned having a brother who is autistic, and he has a complete lack of functionality, if I have that right.

In some ways, I fear that we have standardized human behavior so much that any deviation from that is seen as wrong and is now being labeled as autistic. For instance, I feel like, today, the fact that I wasn't walking by the age of 1 would have been enough to get me labeled as autistic spectrum in this day and age. I worry that autism spectrum is being used to label anyone who thinks differently from the way the rest of the world functions.

I hope that makes sense.

[Lia S]

One of the issues with ableism as it specifically relates to the autistic community is that if the proportions were reversed -- if nearly everyone were on the autistic spectrum -- it would be the people who are viewed as "normal" or "neurotypical" who would have more trouble.

I'm not sure about that. They might have the disadvantage of being considered unusual, but they would have less difficulty figuring out how the majority thinks than most autistic people do.

Society is made to cater to the majority, so when a minority has a hard time functioning in the accepted framework, they're seen as lesser.

I'm not sure if there would be as much discrimination in a society where the majority is autistic...

Lia mentioned losing jobs and friendships, but that's not a part of being autistic, it's part of the way people reacts to your behaviors when you're autistic.

That's like saying needing a wheelchair is not a part of muscle atrophy, it's part of the way gravity reacts to you. Even when people know why you act the way you do, give you all their patience, and make sure never to discriminate, autism can still be a be a social disability.

My son is autistic, and I've spent a lot of time poking around the community, though without getting actively involved, because as his mom, I have a right (and an obligation) to learn, but not necessarily to speak. The most frustrating thing for a lot of PWDs is that the able-bodied, neurotypical world insists on making decisions for them or deciding what's best for them.

I don't know who here knows about Autism Speaks, but it's a charity with the goal of curing autism. I have never met a single autistic person who liked or approved of them. Lots of parents and family members of children with autism like them a lot, but they have no members of their boards who actually have autism, and have unilaterally decided that everyone would be better off if autism were eradicated. Autistic adults (in my experience) are furious about this, because they don't view themselves as lesser: their problem is that they see things differently, and the rest of the world expects them to do all of the accommodating.

I don't know Autism Speaks directly (I live in a different part of the world), but I've heard of them and why they're considered offensive. First of all, their name, when no board members have autism. Second, they seem to think of autistic people as objects that make the lives of their relatives difficult, instead of as people with problems who could use some help.

I think it's wrong to think someone is either lesser or merely "different", because "different" means there would be no problems if only everyone would accept each other as they are. Some people have more problems than others, but people with more problems don't have less value as a person. I guess this misunderstanding is caused by thinking economic value and value as in deserving love are the same thing.

I think that's the mindset that leads to people saying, "Don't say disabilities are bad." So of them clearly are, but others are more grey-shaded. If you offered me a cure tomorrow, a magic shot to make my son "normal", I wouldn't take it. He's fantastic and funny and sweet and brilliant, even if he has some significant issues, and it's not my place -- or anyone's -- to say he should be changed, unless he decides he wants it.

I wouldn't take a magic shot that made me normal, but I might take one that would solve my problems without making me normal. Making me normal would mean replacing me by a different person, in a sense it would be murder. Not every difference is a problem, and things that aren't problems don't need solving, but things that are problems do need solving.

Of course the solution doesn't have to be a medicine. A pill without unpleasant side effects that would allow me to go to a noisy and crowded party and have conversations like everyone else would be nice, but (just making something up on the spot) I could learn sign language and become friends with lots of deaf people, or I could hang out on IRC and call it a "party", or... etc etc. A solution to a disability can be more limited than being normal while being good enough to not need a better solution.

Maybe the rising autism rates are actually human evolution in action. I know a few people who are autistic who would argue that they are.

Considering the speed at which evolution works and how new the things it's supposed to be an adaptation to are, that doesn't make sense. Also, I'm pretty sure life 100 or 200 years ago would have been easier for the majority of autistic people. Sure, there were no computers for them to be "good with", but there was much less of an information chaos, and specialists were appreciated more.

Nowadays advertisements even for the most technical jobs ask for good social and communicative skills, we expect everyone to be not only normal but extroverted, even when it's completely unnecessary to get the job done. That's ableism too.

Of course it does feel good to claim we're the next step in evolution (which means better) when we're being treated as lesser now.

Autism is what I know most about, but I suspect some of the similar logic applies in the Deaf community and among other groups, as well. The assumption that something is a defect that needs curing just because it's different from you, or that someone's life is less happy than yours because of a physical, mental, or emotional problem, is where ableism starts.

I agree.

Don't all types of discrimination start with an assumption?

[Mr. Brightside]

Considering the speed at which evolution works and how new the things it's supposed to be an adaptation to are, that doesn't make sense.

That's a common misconception, but evolution only works as quickly or as slowly as the environment, and the rareness of the trait, dictate - the generation autism, or having an autistic relative, comes to be a net advantage rather than a disadvantage to genetic fitness, it'll start going up, exactly as quickly or as slowly as the advantage it provides. If that's been the case for the past 50-100 years, we would definitely be seeing a measurable increase.

[Lia S]

Considering the speed at which evolution works and how new the things it's supposed to be an adaptation to are, that doesn't make sense.

That's a common misconception, but evolution only works as quickly or as slowly as the environment, and the rareness of the trait, dictate - the generation autism, or having an autistic relative, comes to be a net advantage rather than a disadvantage to genetic fitness, it'll start going up, exactly as quickly or as slowly as the advantage it provides. If that's been the case for the past 50-100 years, we would definitely be seeing a measurable increase.

It's not the immunity to malaria kind of advantage, but the slightly more professional success kind, and that only for people who aren't autistic themselves AND don't have to spend too much time caring for someone who is but who do have some of the genes... This wouldn't be noticeable in three generations and we haven't been counting properly for even one generation.

[Bardlp]

The big thing I've seen (and done) working with people who have developmental disabilities isn't so much able-ism (which is a problem) but paternalism. It's sometimes a very hard line to avoid crossing. When you're responsible for an adult who is functionally a seven-year-old in most areas, how do you respect their right to autonomy while simultaneously stopping them from making dangerous decisions? And how do you know whether a decision could be dangerous or not? Stopping someone from walking into traffic is an easy decision. Stopping someone from getting a ton of facial tattoos that will cause them to become unemployable in the crappy jobs that they're qualified for? Stopping a couple who both have Down's, both live with their parents, neither works nor has their own guardianship, from having children? The line between respecting a developmentally disabled adult as an adult and protecting them from poor decisions is distressing to contemplate. The outcomes of those contemplations are more distressing for the person who has the disability, who may be losing the ability to make their own choices and not understand why.

Edit: On a completely different note (hopefully it's kosher to link out other comics here), That Deaf Guy is a pretty fun (if a little bland) webcomic about a deaf man, his hearing wife and son, and their adventures navigating a hearing world. There're occasional hits with the topic of this thread. http://www.thatdeafguy.com/

[Valerie]

Like Glishara, I'm not 100% positive that high-functioning autistic people need a cure, either. Low-functioning, like my brother? Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. High-functioning, like my sister? Only if she wants it, and only after she's talked to a professional about it (because a change in your wiring would be incredibly difficult to adjust to, I'm sure).

My sister is smart, funny, and talented. She's capable of doing her homework and learning. All in all, there are no practical difficulties in her life. But the emotional side of it must be very, very hard to handle, and I wouldn't blame her if she wanted to be neurotypical instead. And, if she's happy and functional the way she is, I see no reason she should be told to change.

My brother, on the other hand, just got out of pull-ups when he waaas... I believe around fifteen. He's now 21 years old and living in a group home with three other men who have similar situations to his. He can say a few words ("Mommy," "Daddy," "food," and "eat" are some). He gets frustrated easily and breaks things. He is unable to make his own decisions. To the best of my knowledge, he can't prepare his own food, even with the assistance of a microwave.*

*I actually haven't seen him in a few years, so that last part was a guess. Our parents saw him about a week ago, so the rest is all accurate.

So, in his case, a cure of some kind needs to present itself, and the sooner the better.

[Artemisia]

Valerie,

I don't know if this sounds. . .I don't want to offend you or upset you, but it doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with your sister. That is, at least, to me.

[Valerie]

I agree that there's nothing especially wrong with her. But she does have Asperger's, if that's what you were getting at. She was diagnosed when she was younger, and she hasn't had therapy or medication for it, so it's obvious if you're around her. Hearing about it secondhand from me doesn't give you all the visual/oral cues, plus she does display other symptoms that I haven't mentioned in this thread, such as strong fascinations (she loves checking the weather; we affectionately call her "the weather girl" because she can always tell us about the temperature, storms, etc.), repetitive behavior (she shouts "DONDE ESTA MI FISHIE!?" a lot when she sees me, because I said it about three years ago while I was playing Animal Crossing and she thought it was funny), and forced/over-the-top facial expressions, overly-formal speech (especially when taking into consideration that she's 11 years old), chattering on about things (such as the weather) without realizing that the listener is getting bored, etc.

[Artemisia]

deleted

[Artemisia]

I'm pulling this.

[Captain LeBubbles]

Of course it does feel good to claim we're the next step in evolution (which means better) when we're being treated as lesser now.

It's also a misconception to say that evolution is always change for the better- it's not, it's just adapting better to a different environment. Consider the human's sense of smell- since we started domesticating dogs, it's evolved to be much weaker. While that's not necessarily a bad thing, it isn't exactly something that could be considered an improvement. (edit: And honestly, would you really consider birds and improvement on dinosaurs? Birds are nice, but dinosaurs are way better.)

(I'm not saying anything about the ableism subject because it's not something I know anything about. I just wanted to point that out, about the evolution thing. And to be honest, I don't even know that much about evolution, it's just that's the part that Professor stressed the most when we were discussing it in lecture.)