5-9-12 Up.

[IS_Wolf]

You are not making your statement look any better, and you should stop.

I'm trying to convey what is bugging me about the character design to the best of my ability and without trying to step on anyone's toes.
The fact that you decide to take umbrage at that anyway, says more about you than it does about me.

And if you really think I'm out of line, then take it up with T. He decides to reprimand me, so be it then.

[Cheshire]

Did you seriously just "no u" me? Just because you say, "pardon the expression," or "no offense but," or "I'm not a racist, but" before saying offensive or ignorant things does not excuse them.

And also, lol. I'm not going to report you for being ignorant. You are perfectly free to be and remain as ignorant as you like. But I'm not going to pat you on the back or pretend that everything's okay because you said "pardon the expression" before spouting a load of crap about how trans and cis women give off different "vibes."

Oh, but wait, you're the real victim here because I yelled at you. qqqqqqqqq

[Freemage]

4 ) Saying that a character must be trans because "there's something 'off' about her" is not particularly sensitive to trans people, even though I'm sure no offence was meant.

Which is precisely why I asked if you lot would pardon the expression. Not quite sure how else to phrase it.
And while she may be visually based on another forum member that does not automatically mean that character and person are 1 to 1 interchangeable.

Plus there's always the risk of Art exaggerating some features that makes the picture look slightly different from the person it was modeled on, and that may be causing the incongruity as well.

There's just something about Marie, that to me anyway, suggests: was not born physically a woman.

Didn't have that with Chrissie oddly enough.
That one just gave off a vibe of a slightly overweight African-American lady, probably an engineering student, based upon garb and hairstyle.

I'm going to explain the reaction you're getting:

1: Just about all trans- people will tell you that they WERE born a particular gender, and that gender simply was misidentified because of some biological quirks. So lines like, "was not born physically a woman" don't quite cut it. If you must, for some reason, try the phrasing, "was assigned male at birth".

2: The notion that there's a set of traits that are explicitly feminine or masculine is almost as damaging to trans rights as the concept of being 'born a man' would be. It says that unless someone manages to lose ALL of the traits that might be used to 'clock' them, they'll never be able to fully consider themselves transitioned.

3: At the same time, it also establishes a strict gender binary where 'masculine' women and 'feminine' men are automatically suspected of being trans.

All of these are going to be insulting to at least some of the folks targeted. Now, to be clear: I do not think that was remotely your intent. I doubt there are many people here would actually be inclined to be actively hostile to genderqueer folks of any sort, given the nature of the strip. That said, you're suffering from blinders that make it a bit tough for you to see the offense for what it is, and thus avoid it (the technical/academic name for those blinders is 'privilege', but since that usage often generates a reaction based on the more common, everyday use of the word, I figured I'd start with the definition and work backwards).

[LookingIn]

Except the original quote that sparked all this was "Yeah, that's (being an mtf transgender) what I'm picking up from the char design as well. Something just seems... "off", if you lot will pardon the expression."

So this is not something "off" about her as in "goth girl" or "creepy personality," this is "this woman looks like she used to be a man," which of course is something that cis and trans women just love hearing.

To be devi's advocate for a second: calling her creepy wasn't out of the blue..."creepy quiet" was what T had Hank describe her as. Add in the last two strips and it isn't that hard to go overboard with assumptions about her in the wrong way.

But frankly calling her goth, Cyndi 2.0 or any variation, or trans- those things are way out there and way too premature and are an insult to her.

Goth: Actually, fair to suggest, based on the style of her dress (which is more distinctive than most of the ones we've seen so far). Obviously, it could be wrong, but it's a reasonable implication to draw.

Cyndi 2.0: Seriously, it was a joke, and never anything but. A ~serious~ suggestion that the character was intended as such would, definitely, be vastly premature.

trans-: Yes, very off-putting for all the reasons folks have outlined.

Calling someone goth for their hairstyle and a black dress though? It's a big stretch...and it can be insulting to someone if they aren't goth.

Heh. I think part of it is that I don't regard "goth" as an identity (compared with trans- or sexual orientation, for instance). It's a school of fashion, art and philosophy, but one can be 'goth' with only one of those categories. The outfit, hairstyle and make-up are at least influenced by goth fashion mores.

Now, if you're using a tighter definition of 'goth', one that incorporates a full lifestyle, then I'd understand saying that any speculation along those lines was premature.

I prefer to err on the side of caution with labels for people especially one that could be negative like that, but I think I agree with you in full

[Mr. Brightside]

*Ahem hem*

1 ) If people have been following the thread these last two updates, they should know Marie is based on Cheshire, as she's repeatedly pointed out.

2 ) In the absence of her stating the contrary, Cheshire is cisgender. Therefore, Marie should be assumed to be cis as well, unless otherwise indicated.

The "trans" speculation is problematic for the latter two reasons (and more), but I think it best to dissociate these characters from ourselves - after all, isn't there a man in the comic patterned on you? And any institution that would hire me to teach anything would deserve what it got.

For that reason, I don't think it ought to be out-of-bounds to suggest that this will be this comic's Cyndi, albeit quite premature.

[Captain LeBubbles]

The "trans" speculation is problematic for the latter two reasons (and more), but I think it best to dissociate these characters from ourselves - after all, isn't there a man in the comic patterned on you? And any institution that would hire me to teach anything would deserve what it got.

Okay, someone's gonna have to get me a list of the Trick-or-Reader winners and which forumites they are, because I'm getting confused. WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE?

[Alice Macher]

For that reason, I don't think it ought to be out-of-bounds to suggest that this will be this comic's Cyndi, albeit quite premature.

I did distinguish between that sort of spec and the trans thing.

For my part, I'm curious as to what Alex's deal will be if he reappears. Well, we know he's bi and doesn't like what he ordered the first evening in the cafeteria. I mean what else his deal will be. I'm hoping for secret alchemist whose experiments go awry and overturn the laws of physics on campus.

[Zanosuke Kurosaki]

The "trans" speculation is problematic for the latter two reasons (and more), but I think it best to dissociate these characters from ourselves - after all, isn't there a man in the comic patterned on you? And any institution that would hire me to teach anything would deserve what it got.

Okay, someone's gonna have to get me a list of the Trick-or-Reader winners and which forumites they are, because I'm getting confused. WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE?

Valerie is Valerie.
Alex is Alice Macher. (gender-swapped)
Anne-Elaine is a composite of Snoww Brigade and Pink Freud. (AE = SB in persona, PF in looks ((gender-swapped, too)) )
Jules is another forumite who I can't recall at the moment, unfortunately. (wish I could find the post where someone copped to being her, but it's evading me right now)
Jade is CJ.
Marie is Chesire.
And Michael is me.

There ya go, that's a start at it for you.

[CEOIII]

And I'm Ronnie.

[Pink Freud]

Yeah, where the heck Is Anne-Elaine? If she's based on anything similar to me she'd be stalking Val right now.

[Zanosuke Kurosaki]

Yeah, where the heck Is Anne-Elaine? If she's based on anything similar to me she'd be stalking Val right now.

*falls out of chair with laughter* And I'm sure Val is so glad to hear that. XD

[LookingIn]

And I'm Ronnie.

Can I claim to be him too by proxy of a striking resemblance even though it isn't in the least bit true? Please?

[Captain LeBubbles]

Then who is Mr. Brightside? I thought he implied to be in the comic as well?

[Mr. Brightside]

The linguistics lecturer, I'm pretty sure.

[mindstalk]

Hey, i started the trans speculation, so you can dogpile on me too.

I don't walk around identifying people as looking off-gender and speculating if they're transsexual. Partly because the base rates are low and it's not the sort of thing you rationally assume, vs. just being androgynous, partly because I'm not going to ask, and mostly because I just don't.

But this is QUILTBAG. The base rates for non-modal sexuality are going to be far higher than normal, making odd speculations less unreasonable. And Marie is fictional and T's character, whoever she might have been inspired by in real life; there's no real person to be directly insulted by the speculation. So.


BTW, have we met any unambiguously gay men in this strip yet? I can't recall.