7-22-12 Bad At It.

[perilsofrosella]

Now I LOVE Marie.

Seconded. She might be my favorite character.

[brasca]

Also, seriously, into a police car?! Seriously? I can see escorting Marie out, but taking her anywhere other than the student health center seems a little...excessive? I suppose there are reasons, though, so I'll just sit back and see how this all plays out.

Well, this comic does take place in America in the early 21st Century. Marie should just be grateful that she wasn't tased, handcuffed while on the ground, pepper-sprayed, and then tased again for "resisting arrest".

Well the upshot to that is the settlement with the university would pay for tuition and graduate school.

[Freemage]

Also, seriously, into a police car?! Seriously? I can see escorting Marie out, but taking her anywhere other than the student health center seems a little...excessive? I suppose there are reasons, though, so I'll just sit back and see how this all plays out.

Well, this comic does take place in America in the early 21st Century. Marie should just be grateful that she wasn't tased, handcuffed while on the ground, pepper-sprayed, and then tased again for "resisting arrest".

Well the upshot to that is the settlement with the university would pay for tuition and graduate school.

Eh, these days, not so much. If the cops cite you for misconduct, winning a suit against them for excessive force is nigh-impossible.

1: You'll need video evidence, or else it will be your word against theirs, and the cops win that one. Always. Even if the video exists, it'd better be clear. Note that during the Occupy protests, a cop was caught on video pepper-spraying a crowd of women who were already contained in a temporary barrier and posing no physical threat whatsoever. The officer in question has never even been disciplined.
2: You'd need to be utterly clean in your record. Expect the authorities to use every means at their disposal to discredit you. This will often include your psyche profile, if one exists--and don't be surprised if one does.

[brasca]

Also, seriously, into a police car?! Seriously? I can see escorting Marie out, but taking her anywhere other than the student health center seems a little...excessive? I suppose there are reasons, though, so I'll just sit back and see how this all plays out.

Well, this comic does take place in America in the early 21st Century. Marie should just be grateful that she wasn't tased, handcuffed while on the ground, pepper-sprayed, and then tased again for "resisting arrest".

Well the upshot to that is the settlement with the university would pay for tuition and graduate school.

Eh, these days, not so much. If the cops cite you for misconduct, winning a suit against them for excessive force is nigh-impossible.

1: You'll need video evidence, or else it will be your word against theirs, and the cops win that one. Always. Even if the video exists, it'd better be clear. Note that during the Occupy protests, a cop was caught on video pepper-spraying a crowd of women who were already contained in a temporary barrier and posing no physical threat whatsoever. The officer in question has never even been disciplined.
2: You'd need to be utterly clean in your record. Expect the authorities to use every means at their disposal to discredit you. This will often include your psyche profile, if one exists--and don't be surprised if one does.

True, but because of all the bad publicity that would be generated from this universities are likely to settle just to keep it quiet. With the ubiquity of cameras they're likely to believe someone has evidence and as for the Occupy protests just because the officer wasn't disciplined doesn't mean the city can't get sued.

[showler]

Suing would involve going to court and telling her story.

She's bad at that.

[oddtail]

Also, seriously, into a police car?! Seriously? I can see escorting Marie out, but taking her anywhere other than the student health center seems a little...excessive? I suppose there are reasons, though, so I'll just sit back and see how this all plays out.

Well, this comic does take place in America in the early 21st Century. Marie should just be grateful that she wasn't tased, handcuffed while on the ground, pepper-sprayed, and then tased again for "resisting arrest".

Well the upshot to that is the settlement with the university would pay for tuition and graduate school.

Eh, these days, not so much. If the cops cite you for misconduct, winning a suit against them for excessive force is nigh-impossible.

1: You'll need video evidence, or else it will be your word against theirs, and the cops win that one. Always. Even if the video exists, it'd better be clear. Note that during the Occupy protests, a cop was caught on video pepper-spraying a crowd of women who were already contained in a temporary barrier and posing no physical threat whatsoever. The officer in question has never even been disciplined.
2: You'd need to be utterly clean in your record. Expect the authorities to use every means at their disposal to discredit you. This will often include your psyche profile, if one exists--and don't be surprised if one does.

It might just be my inner left-wing nut talking, but - how the hell can police have so much de facto power in a democractic country whose people, all in all, have a history of valuing their personal freedom quite highly? So, if I'm anything less than a saint, I can be freely attacked by the police in the US, with potentially harmful effects to my health, not to mention my basic dignity?

And I thought it was bad here a couple of years ago (nowadays the police in my country are pretty careful to try and maintain a decent public image - not that it is an easy task with what connotations police forces have here, historically). Incidents of excessive use of force by the police tend to, I think, cause a major fuss in the media at the very least.

I know the US has slowly drifted from "freedom" to "don't taze me bro" area over the past decade or so, but I had no idea policemen could be caught on tape crossing the boundaries of necessary force and get away scott-free...

[Otaking]

It might just be my inner left-wing nut talking, but - how the hell can police have so much de facto power in a democractic country whose people, all in all, have a history of valuing their personal freedom quite highly? So, if I'm anything less than a saint, I can be freely attacked by the police in the US, with potentially harmful effects to my health, not to mention my basic dignity?

Yes, youtube is full of people getting dragged out of their front yards for daring to film the police. U.S.A. has been U.P.S.A. for some time now.

I'm highly disappointed in Hank here for not preventing her from going to JAIL with a simple "Hey it's alright officers, she's worried about her boyfriend."
Hank is a fail RA. Sorry.

My Marie crush has gained like infinite gravitons.

[Zanosuke Kurosaki]

Also, seriously, into a police car?! Seriously? I can see escorting Marie out, but taking her anywhere other than the student health center seems a little...excessive? I suppose there are reasons, though, so I'll just sit back and see how this all plays out.

Well, this comic does take place in America in the early 21st Century. Marie should just be grateful that she wasn't tased, handcuffed while on the ground, pepper-sprayed, and then tased again for "resisting arrest".

Well the upshot to that is the settlement with the university would pay for tuition and graduate school.

Eh, these days, not so much. If the cops cite you for misconduct, winning a suit against them for excessive force is nigh-impossible.

1: You'll need video evidence, or else it will be your word against theirs, and the cops win that one. Always. Even if the video exists, it'd better be clear. Note that during the Occupy protests, a cop was caught on video pepper-spraying a crowd of women who were already contained in a temporary barrier and posing no physical threat whatsoever. The officer in question has never even been disciplined.
2: You'd need to be utterly clean in your record. Expect the authorities to use every means at their disposal to discredit you. This will often include your psyche profile, if one exists--and don't be surprised if one does.

It might just be my inner left-wing nut talking, but - how the hell can police have so much de facto power in a democractic country whose people, all in all, have a history of valuing their personal freedom quite highly? So, if I'm anything less than a saint, I can be freely attacked by the police in the US, with potentially harmful effects to my health, not to mention my basic dignity?

And I thought it was bad here a couple of years ago (nowadays the police in my country are pretty careful to try and maintain a decent public image - not that it is an easy task with what connotations police forces have here, historically). Incidents of excessive use of force by the police tend to, I think, cause a major fuss in the media at the very least.

I know the US has slowly drifted from "freedom" to "don't taze me bro" area over the past decade or so, but I had no idea policemen could be caught on tape crossing the boundaries of necessary force and get away scott-free...

The basic problem? The laws have been bought, police haven't quite gotten the memo that they are not supposed to be taking orders from the money (in fact, not from anyone outside the chain of command, the trick is defining said chain of command) but from the law instead, oh and the last, biggest part of this problem is that we, the people, let the system work (even though it's technically not really working anymore.) If the entire nation refocused and realized an officer is just another person who happened to be handed a piece of metal and a sidearm (that some of them are disgustingly and disturbingly eager to use...), they wouldn't have enough police to stop what came next.

The other part of the problem with the police system here is that less and less people want to take the job and have to deal with the slime, the scum, and the general, unthinking horrors and brutalities that one would end up having to see, being an officer. So they get less and less good people, and have to pretty much just take what they can get. Result: they tend to end up with less-than-ideal people that are sometimes the very last person that should have had power like that to begin with. See: some of the officers that should never have been assigned to the Occupy cases; also, Joe Arpaio who fancies himself "America's Sheriff" despite that he's broken just about every law that he's supposed to be upholding. (Note: this is also some of the problem with our political and governing systems these days. Less and less good, responsible people want to do the job, so we're left with a system that has been bought and corrupted for quite some time now.)

... fsck that's depressing. Tee-totalism is biting down hard, because man that makes me want a drink.

[Otaking]

Basically, what she just did somewhat constitutes assault. She certainly isn't the one they were called in for, but since they saw it, they have to do something, even if in this case it's just "taking her down to answer a few questions and to see if she can cool down a bit."

No they don't. Everyone could just get a grip instead of making everything worse, mindlessly following pointless rules, and expecting our government to be good at fixing interpersonal problems thus filling up our jails, courts etc with 'criminals' and bogging the whole thing down until it comes crashing down around our ears.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/now_at_nine/police-arrest-11-year-old-boy-for-threatening-stick-figure-drawing

http://www.change.org/petitions/justice-in-the-handcuffing-and-arrest-of-6-year-old-salecia-johnson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJvltrulx6E

I've got my fiddle ready...

[oddtail]

Basically, what she just did somewhat constitutes assault. She certainly isn't the one they were called in for, but since they saw it, they have to do something, even if in this case it's just "taking her down to answer a few questions and to see if she can cool down a bit."

No they don't. Everyone could just get a grip instead of making everything worse, mindlessly following pointless rules, and expecting our government to be good at fixing interpersonal problems thus filling up our jails, courts etc with 'criminals' and bogging the whole thing down until it comes crashing down around our ears.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/now_at_nine/police-arrest-11-year-old-boy-for-threatening-stick-figure-drawing

http://www.change.org/petitions/justice-in-the-handcuffing-and-arrest-of-6-year-old-salecia-johnson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJvltrulx6E

I've got my fiddle ready...

I tend to agree. Americans tend to be viewed from the outside as extremely trigger-happy when involving law into matters that really don't need to involve it. From everyone suing everybody else for any reason they can think of (which has been noted in American media as well, vide "I'll Sue Ya" by Weird Al Yankovic and the South Park episode whose name escapes me right now), to being really sensitive about people entering their property. There are a lot of things that can be solved by actual talking things over, but this instinct doesn't seem introduced into people's conciousness, not even (especially not?) during childhood/adolescence.

And yes, I know these stereotypes of Americans are just that - stereotypes, as are many others. But that's a common outside perception. And it would give police (and the government in general) just a wee bit too much power over time, I guess.

[EagleEye]

Oh, it's definitely assault, but is it a felonious one, and thus deserving of arrest rather than simply pulling her off and telling her to cool it? Ronnie's assault was definitely a felony. Then again, he's no longer on the scene. Or is he? Did Michael in fact give a name "on the stretcher," or did he simply state that, yes, someone had punched him.

Where is Ronnie? Dun dun dunnn

Ronnie's assault is probley a misdemeanor at best, for a felony he would have had to have tried and killed or robbed Michael.

Depends, as always, on the law in the state they're in. In New York, though, it'd be a felony. What he did was assault in the second degree, which is the unlawful use of force against another person resulting in serious injury. (Thanks, bar exam studying!)

[Otaking]

Ok, still standing by my "this is on her" statement, but Hank could've been a good person and said, "NOT HER! There's another person you guys need to talk to!"

Lost a little respect for Hank there.

Maybe Michael said "Marie" before passing out and this is a bad case of mistaken identity. At least I would hope so since I think it's a bit of an overreaction on behalf of the police. It would also seem like Marie and Ronnie aren't all that different in that she chooses not to say anything because words fail her while words fail Ronnie because he doesn't hear them right.

If Michael had said Marie I would think Hank would have been a little colder to her. I also think Hank would be intelligent enough to discern a random name cried out by a semi conscious man versus an accusation.

I lost all my respect for Hank really with this unless some really surprising twist comes about. His knees aren't broken and the girl is obviously already distraught. I'm sure a night to a week in the pokey while she rots waiting for bail will further her academics and calm her down after thinking her boyfriend may have been in a serious accident. I thought Hank was a little less passive than this. Of course you want to believe cops have better judgement too.

[Freemage]

On the "How the hell did America become a police state?" thing, it's... complicated.

1: Most cities have very, very tight budgets. America operates on a capitalist system--to-wit, you usually get what you pay for. Every time the average police salary fails to rise in conjunction with what someone with the skills of a good police officer can make in the private sector... another good cop never happens.

2: Likewise, even the good cops in terms of basic motivations and competencies--the people you really want in uniform, and I've known several who view it as an honor--are often horribly under-trained (because good training programs cost money). I believe 'proper Tazer use' is a few-hours course for Chicago cops, for instance.

3: While we're at it, let's use budget-busting techniques like lowering the number of officers on duty, so the cops are spread so thin that they can't effectively deal with gang violence.

4: Guess what else ends up getting cut? If you guessed "Civilian oversight operations", you'd be correct. Thus, the untrained, understaffed and ill-suited police officers have no real fear of being monitored for misconduct unless the case is so bad the media actually talks about it. (Shall we talk about the decade where 'electric shocks to the genitals' was considered a useful interrogation technique at one of the precinct houses in Chicago?)

5: Meanwhile, yes, there are people who will sue for anything. If the cop admits to an error, the politicians will throw him under a bus (ending his career and making him lose his pension) rather than run the risk of inciting copycat lawsuits. So instead, the cops are pretty much actively pressured to lie, cover up and squelch any would-be whistleblowers. In a sane system, a cop who comes forward and says, "I made a serious mistake in judgement," would be given a mild punishment and re-training; compensation would go to the victim, and we'd be done with it. We do not have a sane system. A cop who goes public with charges against his fellow officers will find himself out in the cold. Even otherwise honest cops won't trust a 'Internal Affairs snitch'. So good-bye pleasant working environment. And pray you never have to actually rely on another cop in a violent situation--they are NOT going to go to the mat for you. And, of course, if you ever get falsely accused of misconduct (a routine part of officer's existence, mind you), the other cops will snicker at you and let you swing, rather than corroborating your version of events.

These factors all add up. Of course, occasionally, a case DOES become a cause celebre among the media. At which point, there's a huge settlement that primarily serves to further tighten the budget--factors 1-4 all get a boost, making the next round even shorter on the play-through.

[DudeMyDadOwnsADealership]

Also, seriously, into a police car?! Seriously? I can see escorting Marie out, but taking her anywhere other than the student health center seems a little...excessive? I suppose there are reasons, though, so I'll just sit back and see how this all plays out.

Well, this comic does take place in America in the early 21st Century. Marie should just be grateful that she wasn't tased, handcuffed while on the ground, pepper-sprayed, and then tased again for "resisting arrest".

Well the upshot to that is the settlement with the university would pay for tuition and graduate school.

Eh, these days, not so much. If the cops cite you for misconduct, winning a suit against them for excessive force is nigh-impossible.

1: You'll need video evidence, or else it will be your word against theirs, and the cops win that one. Always. Even if the video exists, it'd better be clear. Note that during the Occupy protests, a cop was caught on video pepper-spraying a crowd of women who were already contained in a temporary barrier and posing no physical threat whatsoever. The officer in question has never even been disciplined.
2: You'd need to be utterly clean in your record. Expect the authorities to use every means at their disposal to discredit you. This will often include your psyche profile, if one exists--and don't be surprised if one does.

It might just be my inner left-wing nut talking, but - how the hell can police have so much de facto power in a democractic country whose people, all in all, have a history of valuing their personal freedom quite highly? So, if I'm anything less than a saint, I can be freely attacked by the police in the US, with potentially harmful effects to my health, not to mention my basic dignity?

And I thought it was bad here a couple of years ago (nowadays the police in my country are pretty careful to try and maintain a decent public image - not that it is an easy task with what connotations police forces have here, historically). Incidents of excessive use of force by the police tend to, I think, cause a major fuss in the media at the very least.

I know the US has slowly drifted from "freedom" to "don't taze me bro" area over the past decade or so, but I had no idea policemen could be caught on tape crossing the boundaries of necessary force and get away scott-free...

Alternatives?

[Freemage]

DMDOAD:

1: Properly fund police departments. Demand what you pay for. (Meaning, better quality recruits, better training, better oversight, better systems for adjudicating abuse claims.)

2: End, once and for all, the thrice-damned War on Some Drugs, When Used by Some People*. The black market for drugs fuels the gangs, and makes it viable and even rational for them to purchase arsenals in their turf wars. The cops, on the front line, then demand mil-spec gear to be able to deal with the gangbangers. The actual real-world practice of the drug war, meanwhile, has led to minorities being targeted by police unfairly, at every step of the way. This, in turn, creates a hostile environment, where the neighborhood residents do not trust the police, and so do not assist them in bringing in the real scumbags; the police, in turn, amp up intimidation and force tactics.

3: Once we've got those two things done, we need to have some patience--it took us 40 years of mismanagement of police forces to get to this point, it's gonna take us at least a decade to pull out of it.

*: Who Just Happen To Have More Melanin in Their Skin.