It's Drama Free [07/11/12]

[svenman]

Temperance, I think you should have said "it's drama IS free".

You know what? It just crossed my mind that Temp is actually spot on.

It's drama... and she gets to enjoy it for free, too!

I am so, so sorry.

No wait, actually I'm not.

Yes, adding a comma would work too. I'll join you in being terribly sorry so we can congratulate each other for having great minds

Whoops, totally missed that you already made a similar remark. Um, I mean, yes, of course, great minds think alike. Yeah, gonna totally stick with that.

Or instead of adding a comma, transposition would also work: It's free drama!

[grimmi05]

Actually, as has been noted in this very thread, universities often try to keep their 'official' crime numbers artificially low. So the deal is, "You don't fight the expulsion, we don't call in the real cops and press charges." This is very often how things go down with large institutions--employees caught committing theft, for instance, are frequently given the option to simply quit (and thereby be ineligible for unemployment benefits) rather than draw bad publicity and spend time on sending employees to testify (which would cost the company money).

And again, that's assuming that you're correct that the university only has two ways to deal with this, rather than a broader spectrum which might include a temporary absence under some name, whether it's a suspension or even a medical leave.

So i guess the Clery Act is not thing for that very reason, you know the same thing that has Penn state in a lot of trouble right now. If Micheal wanted to press charges there is nothing the school could do about it. its going to be reported and its going to cause a black mark on Ronnie's record. Now if Micheal did not report it, yes there are things the school can do, like give Ronnie probation for a semester so he can clean up his act without getting the police involved.

[Freemage]

Actually, as has been noted in this very thread, universities often try to keep their 'official' crime numbers artificially low. So the deal is, "You don't fight the expulsion, we don't call in the real cops and press charges." This is very often how things go down with large institutions--employees caught committing theft, for instance, are frequently given the option to simply quit (and thereby be ineligible for unemployment benefits) rather than draw bad publicity and spend time on sending employees to testify (which would cost the company money).

And again, that's assuming that you're correct that the university only has two ways to deal with this, rather than a broader spectrum which might include a temporary absence under some name, whether it's a suspension or even a medical leave.

So i guess the Clery Act is not thing for that very reason, you know the same thing that has Penn state in a lot of trouble right now. If Micheal wanted to press charges there is nothing the school could do about it. its going to be reported and its going to cause a black mark on Ronnie's record. Now if Micheal did not report it, yes there are things the school can do, like give Ronnie probation for a semester so he can clean up his act without getting the police involved.

Since I was talking about the school's options, not Micheal's, yes, that's correct. My point (which seems to have been lost) is this:

1: There are many, many ways this could break down.
2: One sub-set of options, which I feel would be best for the character, is that he has what amounts to a time-out, with counseling mandatory for getting back.
3: Several people have pointed out that there's a more severe set of options which entail an actual arrest; pointing those out does not, however, mean that they are advocating for those outcomes specifically. They are simply noting a reasonable and plausible chain of events in the course of normal speculation.
4: Unless someone can quote a line saying, in effect, "Ronnie SHOULD be arrested..." or, "I hope Ronnie gets a cellmate named Ben Dover," the claim that people are advocating that he be shut away from society is a strawman position.

[NobodySpecial]

4: Unless someone can quote a line saying, in effect, "Ronnie SHOULD be arrested..." or, "I hope Ronnie gets a cellmate named Ben Dover," the claim that people are advocating that he be shut away from society is a strawman position.

Not at all. You're already advocating that he be removed from the dorm and placed....where? Unless there's an alternate universe where his presence is unable to do damage, there is no public setting that won't offer the same difficulties you claim he will run into here and now. I'll say it would be even worse for Ronnie, as he'll be leaving a place he wanted to go to for one he doesn't, and if he's held back from college for any length of time, he may never go back, simply because of his issues.

He hasn't proven to be a harm to the campus in general, therefore forced expulsion from the campus (which IS what you're advocating, regardless on if you'd allow him back with conditions) is overkill.

[Freemage]

4: Unless someone can quote a line saying, in effect, "Ronnie SHOULD be arrested..." or, "I hope Ronnie gets a cellmate named Ben Dover," the claim that people are advocating that he be shut away from society is a strawman position.

Not at all. You're already advocating that he be removed from the dorm and placed....where? Unless there's an alternate universe where his presence is unable to do damage, there is no public setting that won't offer the same difficulties you claim he will run into here and now. I'll say it would be even worse for Ronnie, as he'll be leaving a place he wanted to go to for one he doesn't, and if he's held back from college for any length of time, he may never go back, simply because of his issues.

He hasn't proven to be a harm to the campus in general, therefore forced expulsion from the campus (which IS what you're advocating, regardless on if you'd allow him back with conditions) is overkill.

There are settings where he isn't known for being randomly violent. That's the problem, here. So yes, there are places he can go. Now, those places (specifically, home) likely have other problems. But a reputation for violence does not seem to be one of them.

[DudeMyDadOwnsADealership]

So far we have seen Ronnie play the messenger for a hook up for a stranger

It's iRonniec that he did the bidding of the user and decked the guy actively trying to be friends.

Or informative.

[Mr. Brightside]

Not at all. You're already advocating that he be removed from the dorm and placed....where? Unless there's an alternate universe where his presence is unable to do damage, there is no public setting that won't offer the same difficulties you claim he will run into here and now. I'll say it would be even worse for Ronnie, as he'll be leaving a place he wanted to go to for one he doesn't, and if he's held back from college for any length of time, he may never go back, simply because of his issues.

He hasn't proven to be a harm to the campus in general, therefore forced expulsion from the campus (which IS what you're advocating, regardless on if you'd allow him back with conditions) is overkill.

College dorms have to be more concerned with violence than the world at large, by the constant proximity and youth of their residents. Someone who's willing to basically randomly sucker-punch other students, especially if he's strong enough that one blow can cause a concussion, is an environmental threat, and he should be at least suspended, and probably charged. Time in jail and the destruction of his academic career are only going to make him worse, but the school doesn't need to be a place where a punch to the face is an acceptable response to any perceived insult to one's attractiveness.

[grimmi05]

Not at all. You're already advocating that he be removed from the dorm and placed....where? Unless there's an alternate universe where his presence is unable to do damage, there is no public setting that won't offer the same difficulties you claim he will run into here and now. I'll say it would be even worse for Ronnie, as he'll be leaving a place he wanted to go to for one he doesn't, and if he's held back from college for any length of time, he may never go back, simply because of his issues.

He hasn't proven to be a harm to the campus in general, therefore forced expulsion from the campus (which IS what you're advocating, regardless on if you'd allow him back with conditions) is overkill.

College dorms have to be more concerned with violence than the world at large, by the constant proximity and youth of their residents. Someone who's willing to basically randomly sucker-punch other students, especially if he's strong enough that one blow can cause a concussion, is an environmental threat, and he should be at least suspended, and probably charged. Time in jail and the destruction of his academic career are only going to make him worse, but the school doesn't need to be a place where a punch to the face is an acceptable response to any perceived insult to one's attractiveness.

Have you been to a college dorm? More then one brawl and beating has come from far stupider things like "did you touch my beer bro?" or "were you looking at my boyfriend or girlfriend?" or even the classic "he said she said what!?" Yeah school doesn't need to be a place where punching a person is a acceptable response, but the removal of Ronnie isn't going to change the fact that you have a large number of young people stuffed together in close proxmity to large amount of alcohol as well as testosterone and hormones running wild.

[Mr. Brightside]

I lived in a college dorm for four years, and I know that if anything like that had turned physical, and any authority become aware, someone would absolutely have been suspended. I am to this day not aware of a single actual fight that took place there, and not because I avoided that sort of thing; I could write a book of ODs.

[grimmi05]

Then your college experience must have been different then what mine currently is. My freshman year, there was a dude at a party that punched a guy because he thought he was hitting on his girlfriend. I think its a bit silly to assume that just because you personally haven't seen or heard something means it never happens at all.

[Freemage]

Then your college experience must have been different then what mine currently is. My freshman year, there was a dude at a party that punched a guy because he thought he was hitting on his girlfriend. I think its a bit silly to assume that just because you personally haven't seen or heard something means it never happens at all.

Dude at a party--was this at a dorm, or on Greek Row? Like it or not, they are two different worlds on many campuses. Sure, it would be foolish to say it never happens on any campus, anywhere. But yes, on many campuses, getting into a punch in student residence halls will get you some form of fairly hard-core reaction.

[NobodySpecial]

Someone who's willing to basically randomly sucker-punch other students

It's not random, and pretending it is does not help your argument. It may have an insufficient basis in your (and my) opinion, but it's not random.

especially if he's strong enough that one blow can cause a concussion

As I've noted before, it's not strength that causes knockouts, and we have no proof yet that Michael has a serious concussion.

is an environmental threat, and he should be at least suspended, and probably charged

That's every football player who ever got into a fight on campus, to a factor that Ronnie can't hope to touch. How many have been expelled for one punch again?